FEATURED DOWNLOAD: Read and download the full transcription of Episode 49 with Kim Barrett. We’ve essentially covered Facebook retargeting hacks and process in this episode.
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Kim Barrett, the founder of Your Social Voice , is a world renown Social Media Marketer, focusing on Facebook. He is an International Best Selling Author, Speaker and Trainer, having taught marketing around the world and helping businesses grow to 6 and 7 figures. Your Social Voice helps businesses get heard on social media, and most importantly, build engagement, generate more leads and more sales.
Reach out to Kim Barrett
Website: Your Social Voice
Facebook: The Real Kim Barret
Topics of Discussion
[0:02:32.8] On types of clients the company serves
[0:05:58.4] Issues clients have with Facebook ads
[0:07:19.5] What makes a good ad?
[0:11:07.6] On clicks and convergence
[0:16:51:6] Targeting the right audience.
[0:22:51.7] Tell signs that you need to fix your targeting
[0:28:20.0] On targeting interests
[0:31:33.5] The future of Facebook advertising/strategies to use on Facebook ads
[0:42:46.1] Client experiences
[0:44:54.0] Wrapping up
Stephen: Hey, everyone. Stephen Esketzis here from Marketing on the Move and I’ve got my friend Kim Barrett here with me. How are you doing, Kim?
Kim: Yeah, good man. Thanks for having me.
Stephen: Awesome to have you here, it’s been a while since we’ve managed to catch up and have a chat. I think you came down to Melbourne. You’re from Perth so I came down to Melbourne a little while ago, or not a little, probably a while ago now, has it?
Kim: Yeah, it’s been a while now, yeah, but we caught up a few time over there which has always been good fun.
Stephen: Yeah, and I haven’t seen you in a while and all of a sudden he’s been crushing Facebook ads, so I had to bring him on and share some Facebook—what do you call them? “K-bombs,” I’ve seen.
Kim: K-bombs, that’s it.
Stephen: K-bombs. I love it. So yeah, tell us, man, what have you been up to? Maybe introduce yourself to the audience and let us know what you do.
[0:00:57.8] Kim: Yeah, sure. So I run a company called Your Social Voice and we specialize in Facebook marketing. So the way we like to distinguish is we kind of have two different products that teach people how to do Facebook marketing for themselves or if they’re suitable and ready, we do it for them, just because we find that if you don’t have the understanding yourself, it’s like, yeah, I can just go and do it for you.
But if you don’t know what you’re looking for when it comes to Facebook ads, I could be telling you that you’d be getting great results, but you don’t know what to actually look for. And so we always like people to have a great understanding.
So even if they didn’t want to work with us in the future after that, at least they understand what they need to know, so if they use us or anyone else, they know what to look for and how to kind of, say, capitalize and stuff like that.
Stephen: Yeah, that’s awesome. So what are the price points to do, like a learning site versus like a done-for-you site?
Kim: It depends. We do like a lot of events and things like that, or actually looking at bringing over a pretty cool summit next year that I went to in Tokyo and that’s going to be a lot where in we teach people stuff there.
But we have like an eight-week program which starts at $5,000 and then we have a done-for-you stuff is pretty much dependent on the amount of campaigns and things like that when I run. But I start at a similar sort of price point.
Stephen: Yeah, so obviously, there might be like minimum ads spent and obviously you guys will have your fee and stuff as well? Yeah, that’s cool.
So I guess what type of people do you work with? Let’s say someone comes to you with a Facebook saying, “Yeah. Look, I’m selling, I don’t know, camping products online.”
How do you guys sort of tackle something like that?
Can anybody start on Facebook or do you have to be in a certain industry?
[0:02:32.8] Kim: No, you don’t have to be. I mean, the types of people that we get for a number of results, just because we work with them all the time is people that run events, so they make their free intro events, so intro nights, and then sell into other programs, health & fitness, we do really well with, and finance as well.
So they’re the kind of ones that we love working with, but we can work with a lot of people. Ultimately, it’s like you gotta look at the platform.
So if it’s more something where it’s a search-based, for example, I wouldn’t really work with a plumber. I’d send them to someone to do Google ad words or something like that.
But if you have an online store, it’s always great because there’s always a few things we do straight away where we go,
“Hey, do you have an abandoned cart retargeting sequence setup, so you run a Facebook on that?
Okay, we do that straight away.”
“Do you have a general site retargeting campaign? We do that.”
So we just kind of get a few bits and pieces rolling for them straight away depending on what they have, but we have actually had a lot of them, but you mentioned on that camping stuff.
We had a lot of e-commerce guys come to us. We’ve been helping, working with a few of them.
Stephen: Yeah, so is there a big difference between e-commerce and, say, like an information product on the actual strategy side of Facebook ads?
Kim: Yeah, because I mean, it’s not as much. It is the sort that with info products and stuff like that, sometimes people are happy to get them on their list and then they can follow up and things like that on the upsell pages, but for the e-commerce side, it’s more about finding the people who are ready to purchase, I think you know what I’m saying, but it’s like that.
Stephen: Yeah, you get like a range of products straight up. You don’t have like a sales funnel per se as much as you would like, like an Internet marketing sort of sales funnel, whereas I’m guessing e-commerce, you go then you’re like I can either have the blue one or the white one, and they’re both the same price. So you have to market that differently?
Kim: Yeah, it’s a different approach. It’s a lot more direct. We use a lot of the multiproduct ads for that, where we’re just showing people a bit about it.
And that one’s the most important part is just finding that right part of the audience that’s ready to buy kind of immediately, that’s why we normally roll straight in with that, the retargeting stuff, because there are already people that are interested in it, or we do some of the lookalike audiences of their existing clients.
And generally speaking, that’s where we find the fastest traction for them. You still get general public and cold market too, but it’s a different strategy than info products or anything else.
Stephen: Yeah, so I was going to say, it leads me on to my next question. How do you find that like right person that’s ready to buy at that stage? So, say, we’re looking at an e-commerce store, for example, how do we find someone who’s at that stage looking to buy?
Because on Google, obviously, like if someone’s searching like plumber nearby, you know that they’re looking for an answer right now or something like that. They’re looking for quote.
But on Facebook, you’ve got like guys that are there before they’re ready to buy or they don’t know or need the product yet. So how do you capture that sort of the audience of the target?
[0:05:14.5] Kim: So we do love to do a lot of the lookalike audience retargeting, so we’ll put and upload that customer list as long as they’ve got over a hundred, we’ll upload that, get a lookalike audience of that and then segment it down to a nice size, but we also still recommend for them to do, like we’re very big on content marketing and things like that, so we still recommend that.
So you’ve got to be pushing out that content to them to make sure that when they’re ready, they come back, so building a retargeting so a lot of people that consume the relevant content to that product or service, so we can bring them back there eventually.
Stephen: Yeah, that’s awesome. So what do you reckon out of everything that you’ve seen so far with like your clients and people you’ve worked with and everything you’ve learned, what’s the biggest issue people have or biggest road block that they’re facing Facebook ads?
[0:05:58.4] Kim: They just don’t, they’re not setup effectively at the start. They jump into Facebook and just run an ad or boost a post or whatever it may be. And it’s like whilst it can be effective, it’s like you probably haven’t thought about—and we were chatting about this before—like the picture of what it is you wanna achieve and why I want you to understand that. You’re okay? Cool.
I wanted to speak to this target market for this reason, this is the way my message is going to be and this is the offer that I’m gonna offer them. Once you go through that, then it’s easy.
But most people don’t put that amount of thought and they just go, “Oh, boost post. Yeah, we’ll spend $100 for these people.” And it’s like, do you ever wonder why those people, like what level of awareness do they have around your product and all this other stuff? So it’s a lot more intricate to think and they just don’t do it.
Stephen: Yeah, I guess like you need to go through the reason because Facebook will tell you to boost any post they see, really. They could give you pop-ups and boost this, $5 here, sure, 8,000 people. But at the end of the day, there’s no results and ROI behind it.
So yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? So let’s start I guess from part to part, because Facebook’s got like a lot of different parts and sections of setting up an ad and launching it and targeting that you want to capture. So let’s start with like the creative side.
What makes a good ad creative?
I guess, depending on who you’re targeting, how do you build a solid foundation on the actual design of your ad?
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[0:07:18.9] Kim: Well, it’s funny because like we’re looking at—there’s a couple of groups and they always kind of like pull apart ads that we see and put them in there. We’re looking at one last night. And like whilst it looks visually appealing, it’s like it wasn’t speaking directly to, it wasn’t speaking to the outcome of what the client is going to achieve.
It’s like you don’t want to sell people, like a friend of mine always says like,
“Don’t sell them on the journey, sell them on the destination.”
It’s like don’t tell, we’re talking about flying before, don’t sell me that I’m flying on an Airbus A380, sell me the fact I’m going to Hawaii, gonna be hanging around with girls in hula skirts and coconut bikinis. That’s more effective.
Stephen: Yeah, it’s true though, isn’t it? Like it’s more on the outcome, I guess, you’re going to get, not rather on like you said, the journey. So that’s really interesting. So you’re saying then in the actual design, you want to really capture the destination of your outcome that your service or product is going to give the user?
Kim: Yes. We normally go for like, and let’s just say we’re talking about a gym, for example, you will either go, it’s pain or pleasure, should we go, we put a picture up of an empty gym and say, “Does your gym look like this?” or maybe this other full gym and say, “Do you want your gym to look like this?” So you’re going, speaking to the outcome, they either don’t want to have an empty gym or they want to have a full gym.
So that’s the only two outcomes that they can really have as opposed to going this amazing proven system to get you 64 clients in the next two weeks or whatever, it is a cycle. That’s great, but do they actually know that they need more clients or they need to get more profit from each client?
They just go, “Oh, I know, because I need my gym to be full.”
Stephen: Yeah. And that’s sort of keeping it on the most basic level as well because like you said, these guys, they might not know that yet. They’re not at that level, so that’s really cool.
Kim: Yeah, exactly.
Stephen: And with your copyrighting that goes with the actual ad, does that play a big role or do you have much text involved in the ad itself?
Kim: Yeah, I like to go like a lot of people kind of either seem to go for like long form or short form. I kind of sit in like the middle in between. I like to have just like a little bit so I can still address that.
I always go for like the headline and go whatever it may be, in caps and then I ask a couple of questions, put a link.
That’s also the same as the link that the ad goes through, and then a little bit more copy saying “Do this if you wanna achieve this.” This is why, this is what you’re gonna get out of doing this or having this. And just click the post, a lot of people don’t do that either, so that always annoys me.
It’s like, you don’t tell me, it’s just like, “Oh, how would you like this, this and this, and all this sort of stuff?” And then they just stop and say, “Are you gonna tell me to click it or do you want me to register?”
Stephen: Yeah, there’s no call to action.
Kim: “Or should I just read this and–?”
Stephen: “Should I like the page?”
Kim: Yeah, I think some people feel like they’re being rude in that way, but it’s like, no, you have to tell people what to do. It’s like if you went to a set of traffic lights and there wasn’t a green for go, you’d just be sitting there all day. You need to be told what to do.
Stephen: Yeah, and you mentioned that you include like the link, like a URL in the copy as well. Does that actually boost convergence or is it like something you like to do?
Kim: I just like to do it but I kinda seem to get more clicks, and sometimes depending on the bidding structure, I get like a—it’s not a cheap outcome, but it’s like I’m not necessarily sometimes paying for it if it’s in the body copy which may always, I get some free convergence.
Stephen: It’s a small free space. That’s what makes the most of it. That’s awesome.
And then with that like, when you’re bidding on your different outcomes and you got different types, how much of that, how important is that on a winning Facebook ad? If you told me again we’re going back to e-commerce, like if we use the gym and just say you’re a gym and you’re looking to get, do you want your gym to look like this?
How do you know if you’re being for clicks or conversion or for any of those types?
[0:11:07.6] Kim: Sure. Let me tell you where I use like clicks is if I’m doing content marketing and I’m trying to build a picture or something like that, because ultimately you pay Facebook for what you wanna get.
So otherwise, I just go for—if I’m trying to get a conversion, a lead, a sale, whatever it would be, I’ll bid for conversion. Sometimes, I change because obviously there’s the campaign objective and then there’s the bidding structure within side of that.
So whilst I want conversion, I wanna be able to track them really effectively. I also wanna—sometimes you can pay for—well, usually you have to pay for bidding for conversion or bidding for just the clicks as well, so I think they’re just changing now than you click bidding process with Facebook.
I always like to start with conversion, so it’s easy to track. And you can easily send a client a screenshot and say, “Hey, you got X amount of conversions,” and could just get as much.
Stephen: You can’t do that with clicks?
Kim: You can, but it’s not as simple as like when they just log into their dashboard and see because when you have as conversions, it’s just sitting there straight up, except when they log in they go, “Oh, I’ve got this amount and it gives you like the sum total of how many conversions and how much cost of their conversion.”
So for them, it’s just like you kind of got those, I call them like the CEO numbers, but they’re just doing great. Oh, that’s great, so then as opposed to them having to go into and pull a report out.
Stephen: Yeah, and that makes sense. I mean, with that, what about the new Facebook? Because I know they’ve released lead ads. I don’t know if you’ve played around with that much or if it’s a bit high for you maybe it’s not there yet. What do you think?
Kim: The volume at the moment for two campaigns for myself, I tested it and coupled with my so they worked okay as well. But what we’re finding is that we’re still, like because we still have a few clients and if they want to see the final conversion rates, but it’s very simple because you don’t go out of Facebook and fill in your details.
It’s very much like, “Oh, yeah, I’ll do that,” because it auto-populates your name and email anyway. So if you do ask them for a phone number, they’re only really filling in one thing, so it’s not as much like-
Stephen: That’s the barrier.
Kim: There’s no commitments for them to do it.
It’s like, “Oh, yeah. I’ll fill those in.” And we have someone go “Oh no, I thought I filled in something because it said something about Google ad words or they have no idea what they’re filling in sometimes.
Stephen: So there needs to be more education on what they’re actually filling in.
Kim: Yeah, because it’s like when you click on an ad and then you get on a landing page, read a landing page, put in your details there, then it’s a little bit easier. But when it’s like, “Oh yeah, it’s all in kind of the one thing I feel like they’re not paying attention,” not as committed, so yeah, we found that we’ve had a few words, we’ve got leads for—I think it’s pretty much the same price to what we paid to normally go into a landing page.
The quality hasn’t been as good as what we normally have just on the landing page. I’m still testing it because I think it will eventually kind of pivot over, but at the moment-
Stephen: It’s still pretty new.
Kim: It’s good, but yeah, still a little bit dodgy sometimes.
Stephen: But I think like I reckon with all these sort of stuff, like in the beginning it all starts pretty average and as they get over time, they’ll see Facebook themselves or probably see like a trend, “All these guys are getting average results. We need an ad or change something.” And then hopefully going there and fix it up.
Kim: I think if they take away the auto-populate, I would be happy. I reckon that would make a difference. I did actually send Facebook an email saying, I was like, “Don’t auto-populate it because whilst it’s easier to get leads like they’re not as good quality, it’s just someone can click it. If you don’t ask for their phone number, it just auto-populates, just click, click, and you’ve got it.”
Same as those like everyone at the moment for some reason, I don’t know why I don’t like them, but they’re doing the offer. They’re running the offer ads.
Stephen: Yeah, I’ve seen those. I’ve been seeing more and more of those.
Kim: Yeah, and it’s like, “Oh, I like this,” and if someone somewhere must be teaching to do offer ads, but I was like they’re crack because you don’t get anything, like you don’t put in your details so for me running it, there’s no lead, but all you do is you get an e-mail that goes during maybe the social call because it comes from Facebook because click ads are required now. Well, that’s not even in my inbox. Why would I want that?
Stephen: It is paying for leads in the social format these days.
Stephen: That’s funny. Yeah, so it’s cool because there’s so much stuff out now. I know you do this stuff every single day, so you’re on Facebook, you know what’s up. You know what’s happening.
Obviously, you’re probably using Power Editor or some sort of advertising management software, I’m guessing.
Kim: I use Ad Espresso.
Stephen: How are you finding that?
Kim: I like it. I kinda weighed that between that and Qwaya, but they’re just like the character. And I’ve seen a few of that. It got some runs and maximized posts and stuff and just little characters that they have and the way that they give it, it’s like this is very nice and it makes you feel like happy.
It’s weird, but you feel happy when—
Stephen: That’s what I found as well. It’s sort of like less-“numbersy” like less black and white and boring.
Kim: Yeah, exactly. It’s more fun, it’s more funky.
You have got that little character with a big moustache or something like that. Makes me happy and as well I get to every morning, I log in and I like do it. It’s kind of, not stupid, but I go in there, I have my Espresso while I’m in Ad Espresso and it’s like, yeah—
Stephen: I could just imagine you sitting at a coffee shop across the road, you’re like, “I gotta list that.”
Because tomorrow you’re at Espresso with your espresso on your hand, getting a few weird looks from the guys in line getting a coffee. Anyway, back on topic, yeah.
So Facebook ads, like, alright, so we’ve got like the creative, we know what we’re going to write the copy, so with your targeting, that’s probably one of the hardest parts and most important parts of your ad, there’s heaps of options.
So you’ve got like location, you’ve got interest, you’ve got behavior, I think now you can intercept. I saw I think you put out a Facebook post, now naturally, in Facebook, you can do intersection, is that right?
Kim: Yeah, just it’s very cool.
Stephen: It’s awesome. Totally like the ad management platforms are doing before then you told me.
Kim: Yeah, so you were right about Qwaya and Espresso before. Now, it’s like available to everyone which is great.
Stephen: Yeah, so for those who don’t know, would you wanna explain what that is?
[0:16:51.6] Kim: Yeah, so basically, since we’ve been sick with the gym one, let’s just say that you’re targeting people that are like The Biggest Loser, what you can do now is include or exclude certain parts of that audience.
So if you go, “Okay, but I only want the people that like Biggest Loser and then also like Michelle Bridges to be in my audience. I don’t want all the rest of the Biggest Loser people, only the people that like her as well.”
So you can really cut that down and really just drill it down to a nice targeted audience where I happen to split test over multiple interest groups and stuff like that. I know this audience is gonna be good, but let me just bring it down to a nice sizeable chunk which I always like to do a kind of around the 30k to 50k mark is my spot I like to play at.
So we can bring that down depending on what we’re doing and just get really, really great results with that.
Stephen: Yeah, that’s cool, I like how you said that 30k to 50k mark is like where you like to keep it around. Is there a reason behind that or do you just find that that’s, okay, comfortable mark for you.
Does Facebook serve your ad enough or what makes you say that?
Kim: It’s just that before, I found it to be it’s a good sweet spot or if you’ve been quite specific, so generally I find that my lead cost is relatively low when I apply at that mark. And it seems to just work well when you kinda play at that range for me, anyway, because it means that you have to be specific with your audience, so the average has gone, men in Melbourne who like football. It’s like, okay, 50 million people.
Stephen: Yeah, it’s sort of enough I guess to get people through the door and make the leads come through in a good enough price.
Kim: Yeah, exactly.
Stephen: Yeah, that’s cool. So when you’re going at that sort of number with your targeting, where do you start with the targeting? Obviously location’s a big one, and then once you get it down to like to say people in the sort of location, do you start with a specific demographic or interest that you like to kick it off with, or is there one that sort of like weeds out more of the target than another?
Kim: Yeah, I always go—I’ll go the location and then the age bracket, only we should have like probably five or ten-year bracket that we’re going to work with. So we have that.
And then from there, it’s first thing I do depending on what the campaign is, it’s either the interest or behavior segmentation they’re only need to be able to do one per ad set. But you’ve got to kind of get into the mindset of it and sometimes it’s hard especially when I’m doing stuff for women’s stuff, so if you get into the mindset of who the potential client is and go, if I am them, what are my likes/interests/dislikes, I got a full sheet of 20 questions I go through every time to try and get it to the right mindset about it.
It’s like before someone comes and work with you, what are they like, what do they wanna do? What do they wanna achieve?
The best example I have the other day would be one for a girl who is doing career coaching, and I was like, “Okay. Cool. Let’s start it off with a couple of ventures, and let’s go for some, maybe if they’re women who wanna change jobs and they wanna change careers, they’re gonna be interested in maybe something like area maybe some of a bit aspirational, maybe even Oprah, stuff like that.”
We tested a couple of the public figures and we got a couple of conversions. They weren’t cheap, but we got a couple, so I was like, “Okay, we know that.
At least the offer is right and the message is somewhat right, but the targeting is a little bit off because we should be able to get this cheaper.”
Kim: So let’s just say, so I was naming phone number only for a report, so it wasn’t like I’m going for anything crazy, so then we said, I said, “Okay, if we go logical thinking, if a woman wants to change jobs, ultimately, anyone that’s in career, if the wanna have progression and they wanna change roles, eventually they’ll probably have to be a CEO or a director or something like that if their aspiration is focusing career.”
So we change the interesting targeting to CEOs, but then I added in the income bracket, because as I said, the person most likely to wanna change careers, they’re probably going to be earning, I’m going to say, like $40k to $50k, coz they have an aspiration to change and they want to be a CEO.
It’s like if I’m earning $50k at the moment, and I’m always going to be looking for opportunities to increase my career or my options.
Kim: So we did that and then we got like 210 leads in a day for like $2 bucks a lead. Just because we made that change and that was just like that thinking. And it always happens when you’re not in front of your computer or went to the gym, had a break, and it was like, “I wonder if we targeted like CEOs and this role.”
I wonder how much they’d actually would be earning because I don’t know where they got the data from but in Australia now, you can do income targeting as well.
Stephen: Oh really? That’s what my extra service is gonna be because I remember Australia is a little bit limited when it comes to targeting and data and stuff versus the US. So is it limiting or is it, like now, we’re getting more in terms of that.
Kim: Yeah, I don’t know where they got it from because technically speaking I’m pretty sure the way that the US got it was the credit card companies have an agreement with Facebook to sell them the data which when you sign up for your credit card you agree to. In Australia, I didn’t think we’re allowed to.
So I don’t know how they got the data but it’s because they don’t just have income, but they also have net worth.
Kim: But it just says like a level of high affluence, medium affluence, average affluence, low average affluence, but they really didn’t say what their figures are, but you can also target on net worth now as well, so I don’t know where they’ve got the data from.
Again, I’m trying to figure out where they got it from but I haven’t heard about it, but it seems that it’s pretty accurate because some of them I think have been targeting US small business owners who earn over $150k and won’t speak to them it seems like they have the budget, they couldn’t ask them what’s their income but they seem that they have the budget of someone that would be earning that amount.
Stephen: Yeah. So you mentioned before like when you had the issue with the careers coach, like you’re getting expensive convergence, but then you realized you get them cheaper.
So some of the tell signs for example that’s happening that you know the offer is right or you know that the targeting is right. So let’s say you’re getting high website fix on your ad, does that just mean then that the offer is not converting but like your ad is?
Like what are some of the tell signs that you need to fix your targeting or your need to fix your offload, you need to fix the landing page?
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[0:22:51.7] Kim: Yeah, I mean, generally the offer in landing page are pretty much one and the same, but I find like if you’ve driven traffic there that and somewhat qualified, and you don’t have many conversions, you’re not talking about the offer properly, so obviously, there’s something wrong with either the way you’re saying on the landing page or the total offer itself.
So that’s what we generally find is like it’s to say we have a minimum of a hundred website clicks, within a hundred website clicks I expect at least one conversion if our targeting is correct, like if they own a point. If they’ve got over a hundred of them, like something is not quite right.
And generally, a lot of offers now are within the first $20. A lot of people told me I’m too pedantic with it, but I said we spent $20, I haven’t got a conversion in a certain industry, then something is wrong and we got it right.
There are lots of people who like to wait until they spent $100, but sometimes I just got, I’m a little bit more pedantic about it. So yeah, once we know that, if we spent, if we have a hundred clicks, we’ll spend $100, then something’s not quite right with the offer is what I’d normally find.
Normally, if we have a conversion but let’s just say you’ve run out before and you got conversions for $10 and you just run ads now and you got conversions but now at $20, again, probably the targeting is a little bit off, like I knew with this, I was like I’ve done multiple different info products and stuff before that I knew that if we had conversions, but they’ll cost you $20 or $30 and now it should be well under $10 for this offer.
So I said, “Okay, we’ve got some. So that’s okay, but there’s something missing, so let’s just adjust the targeting because it’s converted but just not well enough, so we haven’t got in front of the right people properly.”
Stephen: Yeah, I think that’s a massive one as well, like when people, they started out, well I think it goes in both ways. Like you were saying, if you spent $20 and you sort of don’t take the conversions after that, something is wrong. I think some people go too early, like they’ll spend $5 and they’ll get scared of like, no one’s done anything.
And then they’ll do it on the other scale. They’ll spend like $500 and they’ll be like, “Oh, no. I’m still waiting for data.” And they want to find out.
Like I’ve seen that so many Facebook groups and things like that and it’s just crazy. It’s like, how many people on both ends of the spectrum?
Kim: Yeah, some people, if they got money to burn, sure, wait a while and see but they’re certainly like, if anyone’s listening, I will kind of set the thing and go okay. $100 would be the limit of where I would stay up to before I will make any changes and stuff.
I would do it but I have a little bit more insights into some of the issues and I know what I should be getting, so but if anyone else is listening, I would say that the hundred dollar mark is kind of the good wait-and-see.
Stephen: Yeah. And I guess that depends on the industry as well.
Like I was looking on just playing around with the keyword plan of at Google search terms. And their cost per click for something like obviously if you’re looking for injury, well, something like that, it’s $140 per click, per individual click.
If you’re doing that on Facebook, and you’re trying to target, then obviously it’s not going to be a $20 conversion. It’s going to be a lot harder, I’ll be guessing.
So do you find that is it equal, like does crossover, like let’s say something like that where you’re targeting injury lawyers or something like that, or something which is a super-high cost per click on something like Google search, would that necessarily move over to Facebook, do you reckon?
Kim: It depends. Sometimes you can pay a bit more for the lead because you’d probably have a lot more pre-qualifiers in the landing page and what not, in the funnel side of things. But as well, it’s like Facebook is a bidding platform, so it’s an auction so you just have to find the audience.
You just have to find the option that no one is going to on the day, and if it’s right, because it’s not like you have a set amount of keywords. It’s always changing. They’re always adding new things in the interests and behavior segments.
It’s like someone asked me, “Can you send me a list of all the things I can target in Facebook?” I was like, “No way.”
That was ridiculous, but there are different things you can do in there. So you’ve just gotta find, again, in front of auction that no one else is at.
Stephen: Yeah, and how do you do that? So I guess like when you find that, it’s just nailing down your targeting and finding what customers are looking for. Is that right?
Kim: Yeah, because a lot of times, you can’t tell like there’s certain public figures that would be in, that others won’t, it’s like I have a client in Perth that sells baby food and is willing to do some targeting for some of her health and fitness products.
And she was giving me some names of some competitors and things like that, and I put them in and no one in Perth was targeting it, but they would probably, initially in the industry, you probably wouldn’t necessarily know who they are, but they still had 5,000 persons following in Perth that you could target on with the Facebook ads and like the maximum bid, the highest bid spread in their Facebook recommended was like $0.15.
So it was just ridiculously no competition for that, unless you’re well into the industry sometimes you won’t know or you’re fine, one day you’ll be like, “Oh, well.”
But then if you add in a behavior to it, it brings down the cost, like there’s a small business owner earning X amount or whatever it may be or however they do the targeting, sometimes you just find one and you’re like, “Wow, there’s just no competition on this. They’re just spending a lot of money on it.”
Stephen: Yeah, for sure. So that leads me to two questions. Number one, actually I forgot number one, it lost me. I wanna jump to number two. Number two, so one thing I was playing around with a lot, actually no, I remember number one, I’m coming back to it, number one–it’s an early Monday morning, forgive me guys, but today is Monday?
Now my brain’s frazzled, anyway—in the interests, so when you wanna target someone and you wanna go for like a celebrity, sometimes they don’t appear on your Facebook dashboard when you’re targeting them, like they might not have a big enough following or they might have a big following but for some reason, Facebook doesn’t include them.
Is there a reason why that doesn’t happen or is there any way to get around it or not really?
[0:28:20.0] Kim: I get asked this all the time and I actually have no idea. The only way that you kinda semi-do that is if you go, “Okay, cool.”
Let’s just say the celebrity was you, Stephen, so I looked you up. You’ve got a 100 million followers or whatever, but you don’t come up. I’ll just go and put you into audience insights and then find the people that like you, then next, much of the pages that they like. So that’s the only way to get around.
Stephen: So you get as close as possible to the ones that are listed?
Kim: Yeah, so you get close but you get pretty close to that, so that’s the only way I’ve been able to do it lately. “Okay, cool. This person’s unavailable,” put them in here and find out the top three pages that people that like them like and I’ll just try and get them from there.
Stephen: Yeah, and I guess that’s just Facebook picking and choosing who they wanna add there and who they don’t. I guess that’s probably the only way to look to it.
Kim: Very weird. Like you find some people that only have a 5,000-person following and you’ll have it, and then someone with a million people don’t. It’s like far out here.
Stephen: It’s just weird. But yeah, so that was my first. Now, and the second one I had was so like there’s also a new way of targeting which I don’t know if you’ve probably looked at it. You sort of drop a pin and you do it via like a mobile area, so let’s say I’m traveling like to a country, you drop the thing and everyone in that area can get like it’s a mobile leader, I think that’s what it was? Like have you looked at that at all?
Kim: I have and I’ve got a few clients that had gyms and stuff like that that have been trialing it out. They seem, I reckon they seem okay. I mean, yeah, you can do a ton of stuff out with that. I mean, you can go down to typing in your address and only have the people in the street or kilometer radius around you.
Stephen: Yeah, I’ve looked at that. I don’t know how successful it is though on like and advertise it. Obviously, that’s much smaller scale and more targeted, but do you think that sort of like it’s not going to be on a big scale as if targeting all Australia for like a supplement.
But is it still valuable, do you think?
Kim: I think it is but kind of where I think it will be going is more so like once you have push notifications available through ads which I’m thinking eventually will come, then it will be better because let’s just say I’m walking fast but my phone is in my pocket and I walk out of the subway, but you could do marketing on Facebook, but then I’d like left and jumped on the train and gone.
So unless my phone dings or goes off which may happen with push advertising, then it would be worthwhile, but otherwise, whilst everyone has their phones in their hand, if I’m not really looking at the time or I’m just sending a text or whatever it may be, it may not be as worthwhile, I think.
Stephen: Yeah. I think you’re right there. I think it’s definitely as well what you mentioned is going with that push advertising as well.
I think that’s definitely going to be where it’s heading because it’s all about getting more context around the situation of advertising. So it’s more native and more native and more native, so it doesn’t feel like advertising.
And I think Facebook’s doing that really well. Like you mentioned, advertising on the platform that Facebook is not putting just a big like banner ad in there but actually people go on Facebook to communicate with each other.
They don’t go in there looking to buy straight off so you’ve gotta really look at your targeting and put your ad together properly.
Kim: Yeah, exactly.
Stephen: So I think that leads kind of to another question as well which is where do you think Facebook is going to be in 6 or 12 months’ time?
[0:31:33.5] Kim: Good question, big push at the moment for video, and I think that’s gonna be their highest priority because my understanding of what Facebook wants to do is they want to bring in the revenue dollars from people that would pay $2 million to have a 10-second Super Bowl ad.
Things like that, so I think that big time, it’s gonna be like it already is, obviously the video ads are quite popular, but they’re getting like more and more robust now. When you first did them, you couldn’t have a little annotation in there to click out during the video. You had to wait to the end now.
They’ve got that. And it just makes it even better, and better, and better. And I think that’s gonna be, like if there was one starting crowd to get in front of, it will be that one and I’d really be, I would be doing a lot of testing with that even for running traditional events.
We’ve gone from using like the landing page video in the news feed instead of an ad image, and that’s getting us equally as good convergence as the image going to the landing pages well, so I think over time, it’s just gonna get better and better with that. And obviously at the moment, it’s quite cheap because they want people to use it.
Stephen: So you think that video ads are something to start trialing? People should start trialing and saying what kind of conversions they should be getting?
Kim: Yeah, definitely.
Stephen: Yeah, that’s awesome. I think one example, Justin Brooke, I think, when I had him on the podcast he talked about it’s like using video. So imagine like someone going to your website and retargeting them a testimonial of them using your product, I thought that was really cool. It’s so easy.
All you need to do is just whack a testimonial video and you add it to your retargeting and all of a sudden now everyone that’s gone to your website, oh, look in at that side and be like, here’s Stephen now washing his car with his like Sham-wow and all of a sudden, it’s like mad props.
I think that’s the sort of like context which works really well and you use like video which is like sort of a visual sort of platform and you just take the advantage of it and you use it in the right context.
Kim: Yeah, definitely is. I did those as well, so if anyone hits my website or goes to one of my landing pages, they will automatically see one of two of my client testimonials that I have set up on retargeting.
So then if they bucked it in for a call and they go back to Facebook, they’re going to see that no call to action, no directing them anywhere, but just hear some of the results our clients get. So even before they get on the phone, they’re like, “Wow, this guy is doing pretty well.”
Stephen: Yeah, that’s sweet. I think that’s really cool. So I guess we’ve covered a lot.
We’ve gone from like the beginning of setting up an ad to all the way through of your bidding and your pricing.
Where should you start with your budget? That’s one thing you haven’t really touched on is like do you start, let’s say, with a daily spend or should you look at it at a certain week after you test data? How do you go on that budget?
Kim: The way I like to budget is that you need to have a minimum of $5 per ad. So if you got ad set that has 10 ads in it, it needs to have $50 on that ad set. So I would have minimum of $5 for ad and then I’d like to go until I’ve had spent either $100 or got 100 clicks through is the way I like to budget it.
Stephen: So per ad or per ad set?
Kim: It depends on what I wanna to do split testing, like probably per ad set because I’m really going for one interest group, so see how they go.
So after I’ve spent $100 on that ad set, but really it comes down to your budget, but if you’re only starting out small, I’ll go okay, cool, put $10 a day behind one ad set with one ad that you have that you’ve done some work on and run it for a week. So you spend $70 and from there you should have good data and know whether you’re on track or whether you’ve missed it by a margin more.
Stephen: Yeah, so you told about split testing. How do you run a split test? Because you’ve got like an offer, an image, you got copy, there’s like even bidding, there’s heaps of stuff for split test, what’s the best way to split test and…
Kim: That’s why you add Espresso.
Stephen: But do you think it’s quite important to use an ad manager?
Kim: If you’re gonna spend like a thousand dollars plus a month, you gotta use something like Ad Espresso because split testing, it’s just, you need 240 variations in ten minutes, it’s like you can’t try and do that in a Power Editor or normal ads managers are going to give you a headache.
So if you do wanna split test a lot of things, I would use that, but if you have a small budget, just use—choose one or two interests, decide off it, do a little bit of work, research, but in a high-yield side of it, then go into running it because otherwise you won’t burn money but it’s like you’ll have a better understanding for where you’re going to put that at the start, then you know the further your dollar’s gonna go.
So if you have a small budget, the more time you can use that to start to think of a better—I always recommend, like go and ask, if you have an ad, take it to whoever your target market is and go, “Hey, would you click on this? If you don’t like that picture or not, it would–” I don’t know what I would do if you saw this in a newsfeed, what would you think? I always recommend doing that if you’re starting to get on a real budget, because you’re gonna get more bang for your buck.
Stephen: Yeah, that’s a good idea, I think. That’s awesome.
And does Facebook actually like—I know I had massive issues, and it wouldn’t just be me, so it might have changed by now, but what I found was when I was actually organizing my ads, same Power Editor or whatever, and I had three ads and one ad set, it wouldn’t like serve those ads equally, so I had to organize one ad in a single ad set and then have three separate ad sets if that makes sense, and they serve them better. Is that still a problem or is that changing?
Kim: Because Facebook does what they think is best which isn’t always the case. They go, “Oh, we think this. So we’re gonna do that.”
And it does not always—like the only—I still like to do, I normally find if it’s at the start, you get pretty fast data, so you wanna say, for example, which image has the best click out of your five images, you send them in the one ad set because you’ll get that data pretty quickly. You’ll normally sort it pretty evenly.
But then, if you’re looking for long-term data, as you say, it doesn’t work that way. They go, “Oh, this is why we think it’s going to be the best so we’ll put all the money behind it and not give it to anyone else.”
And then you do, you have to go for the process of going okay, cool. One ad set, one ad, which is annoying but if you’re looking for longer-term data, then that’s the easier way to do it.
Stephen: Yeah, cool. Alright, so we’ll start wrapping it up pretty soon, but I’ve just got a couple more questions, and that is—so let’s like move to the other set, we’ve talked to a lot about like the beginners and sort of giving them the right way to go about it.
Now, let’s say someone is crushing it with ads, so maybe—let’s keep using the gym, and they’ve got like 50 conversions already and it’s time to see good numbers, they’ve probably spent a grand or whatever they’ve spent, and they wanna start scaling it up and maybe they’ve got a couple of different locations around Australia, whatever the case may be, how do you start scaling it to a bigger audience? If you think it’s time to tap out your audience or starting to tap out your ad, how do you scale it without losing your ROI?
Kim: So we just normally duplicate, if it’s the ad set, we just duplicate the ad set and find some new interests, so we still leave that one going until it reaches a point where it’s not profitable anymore, then we turn it off. So we leave it running until it gets just before that point or if the relevance score drops below five. Once the relevance score drops below five, we turn off as well.
Stephen: Yeah, so that’s sort of the key indicator for you?
Kim: Yeah, because there are other ways it’s getting close to the stage where it’s kind of running out, so it’s not relevant anymore. So we’ll then—but really, it’s like you should be writing different offers, and have that anyway, so you shouldn’t always have the same one, because it’s like you probably see the same ad every day, I’m gonna get bored of it anyway.
So you wanna make sure you’re rotating it so you only have it running for like two or three weeks max anyway. It’s not an offer a little bit, give them a bit more content, provide some value and then turn it back on, then you would get something like that later. Or we just go and then limit to audience in size and find a couple of new audiences and we can work with that on.
Stephen: Yeah, cool. So it’s just sort of expanding your audience and trying to stay within that target market still, I guess at some level and just sort of getting bigger?
Kim: Yeah, exactly. That’s it and it’s finding new interest to target and kind of duplicating it out and then with the budget, you scale the budget obviously as well, so we’d normally go—we just go in $10 increments because we wanted some time, you can try and jump for like $50 to $250, it just blows out and the cost per conversion goes crazy as well, so just $10 increments until you find the sweet spot we got.
Okay, it’s cool. It’s jumped up a little bit here, dollar back and then all we do from there is—and it works sometimes we just duplicate the campaign, just create the campaign again.
Stephen: Oh nice.
Kim: You’ll find that they’re done, it’s better to get their increased amount of spend and increased conversions without losing that cost per conversion.
Stephen: That’s really clever. I like that. I didn’t know you can like duplicate a campaign like that. That’s really cool. I have to keep that one in mind. But yeah, it’s a new one. I mean, there’s so many tricks and stuff, little bits and pieces, so have you guys ever faced issues with like account shutdown or limiting or any of that sort of crap?
Kim: Yup, all the time.
Stephen: So how did you guys do it because obviously being Facebook experts, you obviously, I think you wanna be careful of?
Kim: Yeah. I mean, it’s mostly for our clients and sometimes it’s just one word. It’s like—
Stephen: It’s like dating, offering your money for something?
Kim: Exactly like make money, say that and if you get the wrong person who hasn’t got their coffee on Facebook, and boom the account shuts down, sorry.
Stephen: No espresso this morning.
Kim: Yeah, exactly.
Stephen: That’s crazy. Is there any way like to get around that? Like what’s your methodology of like if that happens, do you create a new one?
Kim: Yeah, I have, Facebook, if you’re listening, I’m just making this up but I have got like seven backup accounts just in case. And then because they use Ad Espresso, I can just duplicate the whole campaign, allocate it to the new ad account and then I can just edit, I’ll go back if I use the word “make money,” that’s to say or whatever it may be, you just wait, I’ll just go and find that word, remove it, and then launch it again.
So I’ve always got the option so even if one will shut down, if I know why it will shut down, within ten minutes, if I need to, I can have ads back on.
Stephen: Yeah, that’s awesome. I think that’s pretty cool. And it’s a good idea like obviously we’re never gonna make sure that it gets published on Facebook deliberately but, yes, having a few backups is always a good idea just in case something like that does happen.
And I think I might have to go back and do that myself because I’m kind of getting to the point where especially in the marketing area and putting ads out in marketing, and even if you do stuff outside, so it’s always border line, I think. Unless I’m hearing something super black and white, you can always be careful. So it’s easy to get caught up in it.
Kim: Yeah, and Facebook were only doing this because we love supporting your platform.
Stephen: We’re spending money. We’re paying you guys.
Kim: Yeah. And the thing is, well, sometimes it’s human error and it goes down for a couple of hours, and sorry, that was a mistake. So it is literally a backup just in case it’s needed, but that’s why I like having Business Manager, it’s because with Business Manager, you can have two accounts sitting there basically. So you do have that option to have that backup account in there, just sitting there waiting for you ready to go.
Stephen: That’s cool. Definitely need to get on that and set that up. So tell us about like one of your most successful or enjoyable or cool campaigns that you’ve run for a client.
[0:42:46.1] Kim: I mean, the ones where you hear the client’s done ridiculously well in sales is always the best. But for me probably the most rewarding one was, I had a client who came to me and she’s done work with some other top marketers around Australia, and she’s like, “They told me Facebook wouldn’t work for this.”
She had a health e-book for sale. So they said “Facebook couldn’t work for this, I should use Twitter, I should do this, should do that.” And I was like, “Look, let’s just”—and I kind of pitcher it to her differently—I said, “Your landing page is terrible anyway, let me just do a few adjustments, just pay me to fix the landing page and I’ll throw in some Facebook ads for free to see if we can generate a result.
So really, she was paying for both. But just the way I positioned it to her so that she could actually let me do some ads, so I can show you that it would work. And the first day, we did it, she made her first sale, an upsell that she’s ever made.
That was first, I think it was within the first hour of launching the campaign, because next day I messaged her, I was like, she was all worried and I was like, “Oh, the ads actually look great, great, great.”
And I messaged her, I said, “We checked your strap account, did you get my e-mail?” She said, “No, why was that?” I was like, “Well, you’ve made within the first hour yesterday, you made a sale, an upsell.
And she’s like, “Oh my god.” But she’s been working there for two years. Finally getting it to launch. It was just really good and she was super happy and she continues to have great success with it, but it took so long and people telling her it wouldn’t work or this platform wouldn’t work or something like that.
So it was great to get results from her, but actually we stick with what we believe in and how we market and call that product. I know we could do well on Facebook. I wouldn’t have sold her in Twitter, so then it just feels good when you can kind of help and get that kind of result.
Stephen: Yeah, that’s awesome, man. I love that.
I think when people hear all the crap and the garbage that’s out there, I’m like this one right here, this one right there, you can’t do this and let’s not do this. And then, it’s just like, yeah. When you get someone that could actually show you the right way through it, it’s pretty rewarding, isn’t it?
Kim: Yeah, you’d feel great. At the start I was like, “Oh no,” setting the ads up, I was like, “I wonder if the guy was right. What if it can’t work on Facebook?” And then I go, “No, no, no. It’s definitely gotta work.”
[0:44:53.2] Stephen: He’s definitely wrong. That’s cool. So we’re wrapping up, man. But that’s been awesome having you on. Where can people find out more about you and what you do and if they wanna learn Facebook ads from you?
Kim: Definitely, so our website is www.yoursocialvoice.com.au. And if you want, I generally—unless you’re one of those girls that put up fake images and wanna try and sell me shoes or probably sunglasses, I’ll only accept you on Facebook. So www.facebook.com/RealKimBarrett is me so feel free to add me and ask any questions or anything as well.
Stephen: Yeah, cool. We’ll write that in the show notes page, so people could go to the website, you can search Kim in the search bar and he’ll be right there.
But yeah, it’s awesome having you on then, pleasure having you on this morning. And yeah, we’ll catch up soon and if anyone is listening from Australia or if you’re heading actually to traffic in Convergence Summit next year, is it next year?
Kim: Yeah, I’m thinking about it. I am foolish I didn’t buy the early bird VIP ticket so I’m not sure but I’m still considering going. I’m just gonna wait for a couple of event details for next year. But otherwise, I think I’ll probably head over for it.
Stephen: Alright, if you do, I know I just booked my ticket and flights recently, so if any of the listeners are out there heading there, you might see Kim there, I’ll be there or if you guys wanna come to Australia, it would be cool.
We should do a meet-up or some sort of marketing party or something like that, I don’t know. We’ll work something out. But yeah, that would be fun. But awesome to have you on, man. Thanks for jumping on and we’ll speak to you soon.
Kim: Alright, cheers. Thanks for having me.
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